THE Hebrew LETTER Qof/Gof QUESTION: How do you pronounce the letter that comes after after Sadi QUESTION: ? ANSWER: qof? QUESTION: yah QUESTION: Do you realize how refined Temani Hebrew is? ANSWER: some pronounce it like a k in the back of the throat and some like a g. QUESTION: I am told that either way... it is not such a hard sound ANSWER: It actually is kind of a cross between the two like a cross between g and k only near the back of the throat. QUESTION: its more throaty ANSWER: I can tell you for sure that qof does not sound like an english k like the kaf does. QUESTION: My friend Haim told me it is like G as in Girl QUESTION: But this does not appear to be the case even though he appears to pronounce it more throaty than a hard g. ANSWER: that is as close as you can get in english ANSWER: Yes, it is more in the throat QUESTION: I had no idea how similar MIZRAHIM are to the Temani pronunciation QUESTION: in many many ways ANSWER: There are only two ways to pronounce hebrew that are close to the original ways. ANSWER: teymani and bavli ANSWER: bavli pronounces the qof completely in the throat ANSWER: where the teymani is just a tiny bit less in the throat QUESTION: However, I do here that Obadia Yusef and the Mizrahhim do it (in the throat) too QUESTION: SURPRISE QUESTION: If you study Syriac and Aramaic... QUESTION: the oldest forms QUESTION: you will see two variants emerging QUESTION: The Jimmel is a perfect example QUESTION: The Temanim preserve the J/GH QUESTION: while the Mizrachim preserved the G/GH QUESTION: Even old Ethiopic and Arabic ANSWER: Some teymanim pronounce G/GH instead of J/GH QUESTION: THAT PROVES MY CASE. QUESTION: According to the Saadiah Gaon...the Arabs have three that we lack: Jin (as the 'j' in jaywalk), a second, deeper version of our dotted Daleth, and a second, deeper version of our undotted Daleth. The very same information is imparted to us by R. Du QUESTION: I think there were two VALID dialects QUESTION: http://www.chayas.com/alpha-map.gif ANSWER: I know what letters he is talking about ANSWER: They have an emphatic d which we do not ANSWER: They put a dot on top of the sad which is the emphatic s to get the dad ANSWER: We only have two emphatic letters, teyth and sadh QUESTION: he says you are talking about Arabic QUESTION: now QUESTION: Mizrahi is much closer than I realized in pronunciation ------------------------------------------------------------- CRITIQUE of SOMEONE's SITE WHO CLAIMS TO BE TEMANI PRONUNCIATED. Linguist says : there is no strong hey Linguist says : there is hey with mappiq to distinguish it is pronounced rather than silent Linguist says : old teymani pronunciation of bey without dagheysh is bh, not v Linguist says : pronounced with the lips and no teeth Site Admin : he said the Saadia doesn't say there is no J sound in the Aleph Be. He says there is no (and he makes a letter or sound) that can still be interpreted softly or hardly Linguist says : he doesn't mention that 'alaph is a glottal stop at all Linguist says : I don't know what french R sounds like, but ghimmal is NOT in the throat Linguist says : it is at the back of the tongue Linguist says : he is WAY off on Teyth Linguist says : Teyth is made while make a regular t sound but forming the tongue into the shape of a cup Linguist says : right side up, not upside down Linguist says : he made no dsitinction between lamad and english l sound, they are not exactly the same Linguist says : for pey without dagheysh he makes the same mistake as with bey without dagheysg, it is ph, not f, and pronounced using the lips and no teeth Linguist says : again with Sadh as with Teyth, he makes the same mistake...its is pronounced like a regular s only with the tongue again in the shape of a right side up cup just like with Teyth Linguist says : pathaH is pronounced like a as in apple, not a as in father Linguist says : Serey is NEVER pronounced like e in fed Linguist says : he makes no distinction between shawa naH and shawa na` Linguist says : Also, he doesn't give the rules of pronunciation for shawa na` ---------------------------------------------------- JIMMAL: In defense of the soft sound: I kived in Yemen for one year, and there I quickly noticed that there are literally two different ways of saying the "Jimal." One correct, and the other wrong. Rabbeinu Saadia Gaon who rules the "Jimal" as a corrupt sound, speaks specifically about the "Jimal" that is made by combining the "Gimel" and the "Yod." I too remember hearing that sound, which sounded very strange to me, since most of the Yemenite Jews will not use it when the say "Jimal." The proper "Jimal" is a sound in itself, and is not a combination of any two sounds. TSADI / SSAD QUESTION: Isn't Sad like English S? QUESTION: My friend tells me you have to put your tongue on the roof of your mouth to say it ANSWER: no ANSWER: sadh is like arabic sad QUESTION: like Tech QUESTION: teth QUESTION: like an S sound? QUESTION: in English? ANSWER: In english it is most similar to s QUESTION: Sin and samakh are like the English s, therefore, sad has to be different ANSWER: sadh is an emphatic samakh like teyth is an emphatic taw QUESTION: What you mean Emphatic? ANSWER: You would have to hear me say it QUESTION: tongue position deeper in throat? ANSWER: tongue shape ANSWER: same position otherwise ANSWER: instead of flat tongue it is cupped, but same position QUESTION: like a snake sound? ANSWER: What? QUESTION: Sad QUESTION: beginning of the sound QUESTION: but not Ts QUESTION: ssissith ------------------------------------------ QUESTION: What about Mem with a dot and without I thought Haim told me about this once or perhaps lamed QUESTION: I've heard that it means an elongated sound. Also, someone once told me it can also function to double the letter in certain cases, althoug I have not been able to verify this. ANSWER: There is no t sound in the sadh at all QUESTION: agreed ANSWER: dagheysh hhazaq and dagheysh qal are different ANSWER: dagheysh qal prevents aspiration of the aspirants ANSWER: dagheysh hhazaq doubles a letter QUESTION: how can you tell the difference ANSWER: Only possible aspirants take dagheysh qal ANSWER: beyth, gimal, dal, kaf, pey, taw QUESTION: got ya QUESTION: The Hhazaq occurs on the Resh and Lamed? QUESTION: and Mem QUESTION: The lamadh of halleluya has a dagesh hhazaq ANSWER: It occurs on any non gutteral letter ('aleph, hey, hheyth, `ayyin) QUESTION: the Chazaq does? QUESTION: LAMED? QUESTION: MEM? ANSWER: By the way, if you ever see a hey with a dot in it, that is called a mappiq ANSWER: hey with mappiq means hey is not a vowel here but is pronounced QUESTION: what about Haleluya? ANSWER: dagheysh hhazaq can occur on ANY non gutteral letter ('aleph, hey, hheyth, `ayyin = gutteral letters) ANSWER: hallaluyah ANSWER: there are 2 types of shawa ANSWER: silent and vocal OK, you know how there is a pathahh and a shorter duration version of the pathath called the pathahh shawa? Well, imagine a pathahh vowel sound that is even shorter in duration than the pathahh shawa. Let us call it the vocal shawa. Vocal shawa default sound is the pathahh with duration shorter than the pathahh shawa. The duration time is always the same, no exceptions, but the actual vowel sound can be different than the default pathahh sound according to certain rules. If the following letter is a laryngal letter ('alaph, hey, hheyth, `ayyin) the super short duration vowel sound for the vocal shawa is the same sound as the vowel on the following laryngal letter. Also, if the following letter is a yodh, the super short duration vowel sound is hhiraq. Also, I am not absolutely sure on this one, but if the following letter is a waw, the super short duration vowel is a hholam. QUESTION: levavacha..... QUESTION: what kind of Shwa is that? Answer: lavavakha QUESTION: on the va part QUESTION: in the Shmah Answer: Read your email, I sent you the rules QUESTION: lemad ve ve caf QUESTION: i don't understand what you mean from your description QUESTION: are you saying that every QUESTION: shwah has a default sound no matter what QUESTION: ? QUESTION: how do we know when the Shwah stops the sound or when it is a moving shwah? QUESTION: levavacha is a moving Shwah QUESTION: on the second vet QUESTION: what kind of shwa is that. QUESTION: i am not a linguist QUESTION: If the following letter is a laryngal letter ('alaph, hey, hheyth, `ayyin) the super short duration vowel sound for the vocal shawa is the same sound as the vowel on the following laryngal letter. ???? QUESTION: you mean following the Shwah? QUESTION: i need an example of a word Answer: Every shawa has a default of the super short duration pathahh Answer: \EVery vocal shawa that is QUESTION: STOP THERE QUESTION: wait Answer: Silent shawa has no vowel sound and only ends a syllable Answer: In lavavakha there is no silent shawa QUESTION: How do you tell the difference between a silent Shawa and other Shwah QUESTION: ? QUESTION: thats the first business Answer: Those rules only apply to the vocal shawa, not the silent shawa which has no vowel sound at all QUESTION: HOW DO WE KNOW WHEN A SHWA IS SILENT OR VOCAL? Answer: No, the vowel on the following letter after the letter with the vocal shawa Answer: That is a tough question QUESTION: its critical to correctly pronouncing SHEMA Answer: silent shawa can never be on the first letter of a word QUESTION: that much I knew Answer: silent shawa can never begin a syllable QUESTION: that doesn't really help Answer: two next to each other first one is silent and second is vocal QUESTION: like uvlechtAcha Answer: and shawa prior to an aspirant letter without dagheysh qal is vocal QUESTION: that helps a bit Answer: wuvalakhtakha QUESTION: how did you know it was VAlakhtackah? QUESTION: VA? QUESTION: why didn't it just end the syllable there? QUESTION: wuVAlakhtakha Answer: I do not understand Answer: Could you rephrase the question? QUESTION: The Be (Bet) is vocal... QUESTION: VA Answer: Well, what is on the beyth? QUESTION: a SHWA right under neath QUESTION: the bet Answer: OK, so a vocal shawa right? QUESTION: How do you know this? Which rule QUESTION: ? QUESTION: WHY not end the syllable QUESTION: there QUESTION: ? Answer: You mean wuvlakhtakha? QUESTION: this is my dillema QUESTION: YES QUESTION: exactly QUESTION: i know that is wrong QUESTION: But i don't understand why QUESTION: does one of your rules you've already told me explain it Answer: Because a prepended letter like beyth, hey, lamadh, kaph, etc... to a word takes a vocal shawa QUESTION: maybe because it starts with a WOW Answer: I do not explain in my email how to tell between vocal and silent Answer: nope QUESTION: that makes SENSE QUESTION: YUP QUESTION: that makes sense QUESTION: when it is prepended QUESTION: what about uvishAHarakhaw Answer: wuvisha`arakha QUESTION: wow ve shin (with shewa underneath) Ayn Resh Yuth Cawf QUESTION: yah Answer: What vowel is on the `ayyin? QUESTION: why wuvish A 'arakha QUESTION: Qamas Answer: then shawa on shin takes super short qamas QUESTION: it has to do with the vowel? Answer: Did you now read the rules? QUESTION: let me try again QUESTION: okay QUESTION: got it QUESTION: now that i see it on a word QUESTION: I got it QUESTION: BUT HOW DO YOU REMEMBER THIS STUFF WHILE READING? QUESTION: yikes QUESTION: so it would be a super short Qamas? Answer: Because every body is doing it while yelling it out load together slowly QUESTION: right? Answer: That is how Answer: yes QUESTION: THANKS !!!!!!!! ------------------------------------------------------ About the DAGESH: There, I basically told you that there are only SIX Hebrew letters whose sound changes completely with the adding of a Dagesh, and they are the letters (consonants) "Beged - Kephet." They are 1) "Beth"/"Veth" 2) "Jimel"/"Ghimel" 3) "Daleth"/Dhaleth" 4) "Kaf"/"Khaf" 5) "Pe"/"Fe" 6) "Tau"/"Thau." Ordinary letters that have the Dagesh, only come to either stress that particular letter as in "Shammai" (the "Mim" has a Dagesh), or to make the vowel a "Shawa Na' " (similar to a short Patach). QAMAS QATAN: I asked them about gamahss gaton and gamahss gathol. They said a lot in Hebrew that did not get translated, ...so this is not his complete answer: He said, through Moreh Hhayim, that gamahss gaton is used to refer to the first gamahss when two of a gamahss come in a row. The first one is called gamahss gaton because it is voiced smaller/shorter/faster than the second one - which is to be voiced larger, longer, slower -- but both with the same sound. ------------------------------------- CHIRIQ VOWEL FALLACY: If the hiriq is followed by an unpointed yodh, it is ee Din = dol (hiriq) yodh (no vowel) nun RULE: It is always "EE" . It is just that if the syllable is not emphasized it is shorter and sounds like ih as you say -------------------------------------------------------- SIRI QUESTION: Yisraayl ANSWER: Look, you need to get the torath 'avoth 'alaph-bey book and tape set ANSWER: yeesro'ayl QUESTION: I just called my Dor Dai friend QUESTION: I told him about the book QUESTION: He said the way he learned it from his father is EH QUESTION: but perhaps he is wrong QUESTION: i still think the regional differences are there ANSWER: You need the torath 'avoth book and tape set ANSWER: 'alaph-bey QUESTION: he said that was Ashkinaz --I say Bavli QUESTION: but I told him it was Temani QUESTION: so he said...this is how I learned it in Yemen and from my father QUESTION: it MUST BE REGIONAL difference QUESTION: But Paoloth Saddiq with Haim Washti sounds somewhere between eh as in head and ay as in hay. QUESTION: Also, I have a few Dor Daim friends that pronounce it as eh as in head. It MUST be a regional difference. ------------------------------------------------------------ SHIN vs. SIN / Samach Friend #1: You wouldn't like some of my ideas though - like the idea that "sin" is a superfluous letter Friend #2: because he found the main Baladi Maharis publisher to teach it this way... he thinks it is law for everyone Friend #2: I agree Friend #2: I never understood that AT ALL Friend #1: You know in the Tora, only some Jews said sin and shin. Others just said sin Friend #1: Do you remember the story of the shibboleth/sibboleth? Friend #2: no Friend #1: Hold on a sec Friend #2: so which letter was unnecessary Friend #2: Sin or Samach Friend #1: Sin Friend #1: Sin Friend #2: did the Masorites note it? Friend #1: For example, the sin in "Yisrauel" makes no sense Friend #1: No Friend #2: so would it be YI SH RAEL Friend #1: Go to Shoftim 12, if you can Friend #2: i can't Friend #1: Sorry Friend #2: are you saying that all the SINS were once pronounced as SHins Friend #2: ? Friend #1: Yishrauel makes since - yudh-shin-resh + alaf-lomadh Friend #1: No Friend #1: In Shoftim 12, it speaks of how Jiladh said shibboleth while Efrayim said sibboleth Friend #1: Even back then, there was a difference in pronounciation Friend #1: However, shin makes more sense, since there is already a sin Friend #1: Also, in the case of Yisrauel Friend #1: "struggled with God and prevailed" Yashar-El Friend #1: You cannot say yisar = will be a prince, since there is no biblical case of yehi being shortened to yi Friend #2: yehi? Friend #1: However, y'shar (with a shewa) becoming yishar makes sense Friend #2: So is your theory that Sin used to be SHIn for everything? Friend #1: Yes Friend #1: I will point out that shin is not listed as a double letter in the Sefar Yesira Friend #2: no one has ever been able to explain why there are two letters in the Hebrew aleh be that sound exactly alike Friend #2: it doesn't make sense Friend #2: wow Friend #1: However, I do use sin and shin right now, since I am not a linguist nor do I have any backing in this matter Friend #2: I think I agree with you. But I still don't understand your examples without being able to see them Friend #1: I will point out that the Shomrim, although heretics, do not pronounce sin, only shin, and that iirc, the DSS do not use sin Friend #2: wow Friend #2: very interestin Friend #2: whats iirc? Friend #2: and dss Friend #1: If I Recall Correctly Friend #1: Dead Sea Scrolls. The plain "s" is the only reduntant letter in the entire language. It doesn't make sense. ---------------------------------- RASHI Rash"i calls the sere a "qomas qathon" in Bereshith. Sajol is pathah qathon according to Rashi in another place.-- HaAzinu or near there? ---------------------------------------- GREEK Transcription "Tiberian qames is sometimes represented by alpha, sometimes by omicron, pathah and segol by alpha and epsilon, and occasionally omicron, sere generally by eta, hiriq by iota, althout at times for various reasons this is replaced by alpha...or epsilon "Hireq gadol is represented by epsilon-iota or simply iota, holem by omicron or omega, and qibbus and shureq normally by omicron-upsilon. "Shewa mobile is usually expressed by zero, less often by epsilon, and rarely by alpha or another vowel." Yemenite features include the interchange of sere and holem and the interchange of pathah and shewa ------------------------------------------- ARABIC Vowel Transcription fathahh (pathahh) = ah; fathahh alif (qomas) = au or aa; kasra (hireq qathon) = ih; kasra yaw (hireq jadhol) = ee; damma (holam) = u (or uh or eo); damma waw (shuruq/qubbus) = oo ---------------------------------------------- PROBLEMS with TEMANI HEBREW REGARDING VOWELS: Okay. Yes, this apprears to be a pretty popular (Ibn Ezra based) understanding based on the movement of the jaw. I am familiar with it. I believe this is the order of opening the jaw...hiriq, sere, segol, pathah, qomes, holam. I don't deny this possibility. Okay, i admit the Temanim MAY be off on certain vowels like sagol and patah. But then we have to say that the Babylonian system was also off--as the segol did not exist there. On this point, my friend Shemaryahu points out that the Allepo codex contained the Tiberian system which did contain the two vowel sounds. So perhaps the Babylonian system is off as you imply. Who knows. My friend Shemaryahu thinks it is quite possible that two letters became one. I won't deny this. I can't deny the possibility. Regarding Holom and Sere: A quick oh sounds like eh. That's what I think. I think that speed and region may have played a part in joining these two sounds together. Haim Parhi says that the holam is like that of the sere in 3 out of 5 regions. So Northern and Central Yemen seem to have preserved two different sounds for other sounds. This is what i was saying. There were 5 different regions in Yemen. Pathahh is pronounced like a in apple, cat, map, sat, lap, nap, hat, etc... Saghol is just pronounced like a pathah qatan--same sound but small. Hard to detect difference. Gimal/ Qof: I learned (Jimel / Ghimal) and Gof al pi Temani. Three different sounds (al pi Temani). The other Mizrahi method is G (girl) / GH (Israeli Resh) or Kof (swalloed K). I learned the Yemenites did distinguish between them. But that everyone seems to insist the Jimmel is Aravi in origin. This puts the Temanim on the spot. I am not convinced. If one studies the Aramaic language, one will find that one of the main branches of ancient Aramaic did indeed have the J sound. So this makes it more than just native to one Semetic language (Arabic). It makes it ancestrial to Aramaic as well (at least one branch). So I am withholding judgement on the Jimmal ...although i seem to be in the extreme minority on that.